Gary Wilkerson: Gary Wilkerson here with my dear friend Keith Holloway. Keith is the missions director at World Challenge and also, I believe, a great theologian who really understands the heart of God. And that's what we're going to do today. We want to bring you something that is very necessary in this generation. And if you've noticed the past few weeks as Keith and I have been together, it's a bit of a shift in our Gary Wilkerson Podcast from more pastoral care type messages of overcoming addictions, or family issues, health issues, and into more of a, I guess I'd have to say, deeper theological issues in the heart and nature and character of God.

I believe this is so important for us, because the more we know God, the more it transforms our lives. Sometimes we try to get our lives transformed by external issues, counseling or other means, but really getting to know God is the best way to get your life to where you long for it to be, and it's important in this generation.

A.W. Tozer says, "The glory of God has not been revealed to this generation." And that's what we want to talk about today, the glory of God, particularly in his attributes, the attributes of God, which is a very ... you and I Keith, you know, could talk for eons about this and never even begin to scratch the surface of who God is and his nature and characteristics. But these are not just head knowledge informational pieces. These are things that really go to the heart. Our worship comes from our knowledge of God, the power to be transformed comes from the character and nature and attributes of God. The more we know God, the more powerfully he works in our lives rather than having a distant relationship with God.

So, yeah. Let's talk a little bit about the nature, character and attributes of God. So, Keith, let's start by just kind of the ... I guess the first question would be, how do you define the attributes of God? What are they? Not necessarily listing them, but if somebody asked what are the attributes of God? Where's your mind go to start with on that question?

Keith Holloway:

Well, like most of us, we go to the dictionary. We may have our own concept of a definition but going to the dictionary gives us something of a foundation by which we can begin to either affirm our own definitions or gain more information. So, the Webster dictionary just says that an attribute is a quality, it's a characteristic that is ascribed to something or someone. And I found that to be good, but it threw me off a little bit actually, because it says that it's ascribed to something or someone. And as we look at the attributes of God, of course we're trying to understand him. We're trying to answer our questions of who is God? What is God like, that we may know him.

Some search him out for intellectual affirmation, some search him out for various reasons. But for us as believers in Christ, we want to know him. The more we know him, and like you said, it has direct impact into our lives, it has impact into our worship. So, the attribute is something that describes something or someone; it's a trait that we can begin to understand who God is.

To say that a quality or character is ascribed to God such as all of the ‘omni’ words that we looked at last time, that really ascribing something is, it's coming from us to him. And I don't think that we can talk very much or very long about attributes until we begin to realize and talk about how God reveals himself and why he reveals himself, and then our understanding and comprehension. So, I think that attributes is a two way street, if you will; something God is revealing and something we're comprehending.

Gary Wilkerson: Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly. And I think a good starting point for us in this conversation would, not to go negative, but sometimes we have to present the problem so that the solution is worth pursuing. And I think the problem is exactly the quote gave from A.W. Tozer, is the glory of God is greatly missing from this generation. The knowledge of God is vastly unknown. The power of God is revealed in minuscule portions compared to the actual omnipotence of God.

And so knowing that these things are missing from the church, it behooves us as pastors and leaders and teachers and preachers to proclaim the glory and the greatness and the majesty and the splendor, the weightiness, the substance, the holiness of God, far beyond, I believe what is being proclaimed in our generation.

I think if you go to the average church today, you would probably get more self-help, pop psychology. You probably to end up getting more moralistic ... One author writes about this generation it's moralistic, therapeutic deism. The deism being sort of God just lets things unfold. The therapeutic is the self-help, the feel good about yourself. Even most of the hyper faith and prosperity movement is in that therapeutic movement. The feel-good gospel and the moralistic is somewhat of your old school, having to wear a suit and tie to church every Sunday and get in there and they tell you what to do.

I was listening to this sermon this morning online and the message was good, but there was almost no mention of Jesus, very little mention of God and very moralistic. Like if you have worries, you got to cast them somewhere else. Get rid of them in your heart and be strong. And it's like wow, that's… you salt and pepper a few little grains onto content that is not gospel.

And so the glory of God, the nature of God, the character of God, I think is greatly missing because so many people, unfortunately they see this as dry, dead dusty theology from the 1600s that Luther and Calvin and Knox and then Wesley and Finney and all these older theologians, Spurgeon, are not important for our generation. Well they are, because I believe they had a grasp on the word. Very different than the grasp of the word that I think is in commonality today; they had a depth.

When I read... Behind me I have some books from John Owen and these types of writers. I sit there and I read that, and I just want to cry and just call, "God, I don't even know you." These men... And it wasn't just the ability, because I think those ancient, not ancient, older writers had a better grasp of English to start with, so they could use words that are outstanding. And ours are all LOL and things like that. Before long, I think we're going to be using emoticons to describe the attributes of God; happy face, which is really sad. And not just returning to the grasp of language, but to the grasp of the character and the nature of God. The depth of that is so astounding that it totally blows me away. And I want more of it.

And I pray that, Keith, you and I prayed before we started this today, that when we have this conversation today would not just be intellectual realities of things that we have read or know, but we'd really communicate the heart of God. That he would at the end of this time together, people would know God more, glorify God more, exalt him more. See that the depth and power and riches of God, the presence of his love, the glorious sense of his nature.

And so, going back to what you described there as the attributes of God, these are to attribute, we are attributing, which means kind of we're placing something on God as we view him. But we don't get to attribute, give him those tributes like a tribute, as you're giving something to somebody. And we don't get to give those to him until he has first revealed them. And we in our limited knowledge have those things revealed to us in parts. So, God shows us, this part of me is love, this part is mercy.

And I think we get that confused because we live in parts. I'm part love, and I'm part anger, and I'm part holiness and I'm part lust. And so, we live in parts so we see God in parts, but his divine nature, and we'll talk about this maybe a little bit later, is one. And really our attributes are God's kindness the attributes or revelation of God, his kindness of trying to describe himself, not trying to but revealing himself to us in ways that we can understand. But it's far beyond that, and we'll talk about that oneness. But yeah, so I don't know. What do you think about what I'm saying?

Keith Holloway: Yeah. I'm tracking with you. God is who he is. And he is what he is. And our terminologies today, like you say, we don't have that good a grip, frankly on the English language. We've lost a lot I think in our modernity, we've lost some good elements of the old English. But there are words that we use, you find them in theology a lot that are not commonly used in language. But words like God is incomprehensible. How about this one? Ineffable. I had to look that one up, to be honest. I thought it was like without error, but it means that he's too great or too extreme, too high, too holy to be able to be expressed in human words. Words like illimitable means there's no limit, there's no boundaries to him. There's only limits to God is what he self-limits. He's not limited by anything or anyone or any purpose or circumstances.

Gary Wilkerson: Sorry for interrupting there, Keith. But those are almost precursors to understanding his attributes, his love, his mercy, his wrath, his judgment, understanding those words that you have just brought to our attention, are words that are the bigger picture of God in his essence. And then flowing out of that to us, we understand them in these things that we might call attributes, but he is immutable. And I like that word too, you didn't mention that one. Immutable is the word mute is from mutation. He's unchanging. He's never changed once from eternity to eternity, and we're changing all the time. So, we can go to that.

And these are real practical. They sound really big and high and lofty, but they're very practical. Because God is immutable, we have a solid rock to place our faith upon. We can trust him when we pray. So even those words are big and theological, they are crucial. And I'm saddened that the church doesn't understand these. I'm saddened the church doesn't discuss these. I'm saddened that a Sunday sermon would not include these. Again, they'd be more therapeutic or moralistic or theistic and more political. But yeah, so take a few minutes Keith, then dig a little deeper in some of those words, because I think those are really important for us. Can you describe some of those a little bit more in depth?

Keith Holloway: Well those are words that we as humans have attached, we've ascribed to God in our pursuit of knowing who he is. And of course, our knowing is really not knowing, as God is unknowable; us to try to find him out. I was thinking there are-

Gary Wilkerson: Hang on a second, Keith. Sorry, I've got to keep running, but I want to make sure we get things clear. And maybe you're good about to describe this, but when you say unknowable, well then, you're saying nobody knows God. Then how do we even say the word God? I mean there is some knowledge of God. But are you saying he's not knowable in his fullness or...? Go ahead. You probably were going to get there, weren't you?

Keith Holloway: I'll tell you both. [laughing]

Gary Wilkerson: Okay. Yeah, I agree. I agree. On one hand he's not knowable; he's too far beyond us. On the other hand, he's been kind enough and in his grace has revealed things to us.

Keith Holloway: Right.

Gary Wilkerson: Yeah, go ahead.

Keith Holloway: Yeah. In his essence, he's unknowable and from a human perspective. I was thinking of Job chapter 11:7–8, "Can you search out the deep things of God? Can you find out the limits of the Almighty? They are higher than heaven. What can you do? Deeper than hell? What can you know?" There's this aspect from the human position up to God. What can we know of him? How can we really fully and accurately define him? How can we know him in that essence?

And the reality is, left to us, we could not. But God has chosen ... Ephesians speaks “according to the counsel of his own will.” He has willed of his own pleasure to make himself known. We find that repeated in the Old Testament. God spoke things. God interacted in people's lives. He came and interrupted the course of human societies over and over and over again, and that phrase as a phrase that's captivated me for a number of years, "That you may know that I am the Lord your God."

And so, he wants us to know him. I'm just saying from our strength, our position of intellect and capacity, we cannot know him. He's only knowable as he reveals himself. This is called self-revelation. It's where God has chosen to disclose himself to us. And he has not disclosed all of himself, but he's disclosed enough of himself, that one is that, we can know him. And what we can know of him through at least four specific means, is enough to satisfy the human soul. Now that's an awesome thought that the wholeness, the fullness.

I was picturing when God said to Moses, "I'm going to pass by you. I'm going to let my glory pass by." But he hid him in the rock and he only got to see the backside kind of after he had passed, he got to get a glimpse of the back backside of God, so to speak.

Gary Wilkerson: Right.

Keith Holloway: And that's enough. So, what a glorious concept that God is, he was, he is, and he'll ever be, and he is all of those wonderful adjectives. He is too great to be expressed by human words. He is not limited or bound in any shape, form or fashion. He is incomprehensible, in the sense of both our capacity and the fullness of God is too much for us.

Also, along that same line, Gary, back into the book of Job, Job 36:26 says, "Behold, God is great, and we do not know him." God is great and we don't know him.

Gary Wilkerson: Yeah, he knows he's great, but then he says he doesn't know him.

Keith Holloway: Right. So, he's stating two things. God is great. You can't know the fullness. You can't say you completely have cornered the market on knowledge of God, not experience, not knowledge. But God has self-willed self-revealing to man. And enough of it has been revealed that any man that wants to know God, there's plenty of evidence. There's plenty of revealing. And the follow-up of that is when we come to say, "well, then how does God reveal?" Because God knows in us is an innate desire, that we know our Creator, that we know our Maker and knowing our God, knowing our Maker, our Creator gives a weightiness to our own lives, to our purpose, to the course of our decisions on earth; at least it should be that way.

Gary Wilkerson: Yeah.

Keith Holloway: And so, you mentioned Tozer, it's just because too, we've been reading, we don't want people to think that we're just Tozerites, but we have been reading Tozer together. He wrote, I liked what he said, "Whatever may be correctly ascribed to God and whatever way God has revealed as being true of himself."

So in other words he's saying what we ascribe to God, any of these positive adjectives, these glorious English words that help us to try to scope him out, come as a result of God revealing himself to us, and what he reveals to us is absolutely true and eternal. We get a mental concept, a mental picture, and then we formulate an intellectual response by using our human terminologies to say God is these things. But even our definitions are not so all encompassing and exhaustive.

Gary Wilkerson: That's right. I agree. And that's powerful, Keith. Thank you. There's a couple of... a couple of experiences men in the scripture have had in this. Not necessarily saying what you just said, but they are experiencing it. The first is Isaiah. I think it's Isaiah six. "I saw the Lord and he was high and lifted up, and the train of his robe filled the temple." This was the year King Uzziah had died. And then he sees something and the Hebrew word there for the train of his robe. When I picture a train of a robe, I picture that the veil of a bride in a wedding; a very long flowing. But the Hebrew word there is the hem of a garment. So, Isaiah says, "The hem of your garment filled the temple."

And to me, this is an emotional description of exactly what you just said to us, is that Isaiah is saying, "I entered the temple and were like, woe is me. I am undone. And I'm undone just because I've seen the hem of his garment. I haven't even seen the top 6, 8, 10, 12 inches." I haven't seen...

So, when we say we can't know God, we say no, there's too much of him to be known in our mental capacity and our limited understanding. But the hem that we have is quite brilliant, and it's quite exhaustive and it's quite magnificent, and these attributes are just in the hem of his garment. So, when we say we understand a little bit of the love of God or the wrath of God, we understand that little hem of the wrath of God or the knowledge of the power of the omnipotence of God or the immutability of God. We know in part through a glass darkly.

And yet God in his goodness, as you said, it's a king gets to seek these things out. And Spurgeon talks about this, it's like a lazy man will never get full knowledge of the attributes of God as to the capacity that we are able, because we get into the word and we just sort of want a little bit of like a pick me up for the day, kind of almost like a coffee cup mug. Give me a little thing like, you can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. "Yay, I'm going to go out today and I'll make another $1000." It's not the same thing Isaiah saw when he saw the hem of the garment, falling down on his face.

The second one is John and of course we understand in Revelation chapter one, and he's in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, which is a pretty good thing. It's like, "I'm in the Spirit, man, I feel Spirit filled. I feel his presence." But he says, "Then I heard a voice and I turned, and I saw one," and he says he says he's seven golden lamp stands, which represent the seven churches. And he says, "But then I saw one in the middle." And man, that blows me away. I get goosebumps when I think about that, that John saw the seven churches with all their glory and all their problems and all their potential. And he's a pastor, so he's thinking about these seven churches, like, "Oh God, revive them. Oh God."

But then he says, "But then I saw one in the middle," and that changes everything. Seeing the glory of God and seeing his attributes. All of a sudden, the things of this world, even the churches of this world, my sermons, my podcasts all become dim. And what I want is him, the one in the middle.

Skipping to Revelation 22 then, John has another experience, Revelation 22, where he's seeing the throne of God and the glory of God and the majesty. At the end of Revelation 21 and then into 22, he sees this glorious being, and he says he falls down on his face. Almost like I see in some of these attributes the glory and nature of God. But he made a mistake, and the angel of the Lord says to him, "Get up." He rebukes him. "Stand up because I'm not God; I am an angel of the Lord. We are to worship God only."

And so, John the beloved, right? And he's the one that laid his head on the chest of Christ. He was probably the most intimate with Jesus out of anybody that we read of in the pages of scripture. And he knew Jesus so intimately, so well, so close. And yet when he sees the glory of an angel, he falls down on his face thinking it's God. And the angel says, “You ain't seen nothing yet.”

And that's what we're talking about today. We're going to do our best to describe some of these things in the next few weeks, but really, we're all going to be dumbfounded when we stand before God and say like, "Oh, we thought power was like this. That was like a 10-watt light bulb compared to a billion nuclear explosions." But where we glory ... Jeremiah says, "Let not a wise man glory in his wisdom." So, we can have some wisdom about his attributes "or a mighty man in his strength," so we can have a strong understanding of things.

But it says, "But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he knows me and understands me, that I am a God of." There it is, and he starts to say, "I'm this kind of God of love and mercy and kindness." And so, these attributes are all important, but we only know in part, but the part we know, we really want to be aggressively pursuing, because that hem is a lifetime of study. We won't even know the hem of that garment.

Let's switch gears here. Let's take the next 10 minutes and talk about what are some of the attributes of God and put a little bit of descriptor on there. You've described a few words. Now the ones you've described earlier, would those be considered attributes of God, or more descriptions of what contains those attributes? I guess I'd see them a little bit more of, I'm Gary Wilkerson and I'm kind of somewhat kind. And can you say Amen to that Keith or no? Or I'm not hearing anything.

Keith Holloway: I think I'm not able to split that kind of a hair, Gary.

Gary Wilkerson: Okay.

Keith Holloway: What we attribute to God is what we have gained from his revelation, the amount, the comprehension that we have from God's revelation of himself. We then put adjectives, we put terminologies on him, that from our viewpoint help us to try to understand him. We have some kind of a humanness about us that we love to categorize; we like to departmentalize. And so, when we think of God, if he is and he is, unknowing, and he is unlimited, and he is without scope and he's beyond our comprehension, then how do we define him? How would we know him?

Gary Wilkerson: I think what I'm asking there, is those things you just were described, incomprehensible. What were the other words you just used?

Keith Holloway: Incomprehensible-

Gary Wilkerson: Yeah. To me, those things are not necessarily the attributes of God, those are the things that... Those are his... the reality of his existence. And then from that, and not that love is not still who God is, but there are effects on our life because of certain attributes, justice of God, the mercy of God, anger of God, love of God. Whereas the immutability of God, or the incomprehensible nature of God. I don't know if they're necessarily attributes, they are, but just they're sort of his self-existence. They give us some sense of his nature, maybe more than his attributes.

So, I think that's the way I would say it. And the things you just described are the nature of God. He is unchanging, he is eternal. So, I suppose those could be attributes as well, but I see those more as the nature of God, and then the attributes that exude from him to us become his attributes.

And both of us, we started this session by saying we're going to talk about the attributes of God, but really the nature and character of God is all encompassing in this, because God is one and he's holy. And I keep interrupting you, Keith. I know you're about to say something else there, so please continue.

Keith Holloway: No, that's okay. I guess I'm not making that fine line of a distinction. I think any of those kind of terminologies, some maybe really specifically define who he is and then some define perhaps how or in what nature he does things. But I think that the definition is quality or character or characteristics that we ascribe to someone or to something.

Again, going back Tozer, we're ascribing to God terminologies that come from the revelation that God gives us. And the revelation that that God has chosen to show himself to man, that we may know him, there may be more, but I identified four. And I think typically these are the four that are mentioned most often and that is creation, and then scripture, and then the Holy Spirit and then of course Christ.

And so, when we look-

Gary Wilkerson: So, they're the four ways of getting to know the attributes, is that what you're saying?

Keith Holloway: I'm saying these are the four ways that seem to be primary ways that God revealed himself.

Gary Wilkerson: Right.

Keith Holloway: Remember, we don't know anything, unless he reveals himself to us. And he's revealed himself to us through creation. We know Romans 1 and it's a section of scripture that I probably will come back to, but chapter one verses 19 through 25 just basically says that what man can know of God has been revealed to them because God has shown it to them, verse 19. And then because of creation, his invisible attributes are clearly seen. And then as it goes down, it talks about his eternalness, his power, which is the omnipotence of God, speaks of the Godhead. And then there's man's... So, he's saying that by this creation I'm revealing myself to all mankind.

And then the scriptures, Roman 7 talks about the law, that it is holy and that its commandments are holy, just and good. God is the law giver. And the law itself reflects the nature, the characteristics of the law giver. So, if the law is good, holy, just, then God himself is that way. And so, he's revealing himself through scripture.

1 John 3:2–3 says, "Now we are the children of God and it has not yet been revealed what we will be, but we know, right now we know, that when Christ is fully revealed, we'll be like him, for we'll see him as he is. And everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself just as he is pure." So there again is the revealing through the scriptures that God is pure, and that Christ is pure. And that when we see him as he is, even now in our limited way, we can see that God is pure, he's holy, he's righteous; all those adjectives. So, you have creation, you have scripture, then you have the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:10–11, "That God has revealed to us through his Spirit, for the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God." So, the Holy Spirit is one of the ways by which God reveals himself. And we know that he doesn't need to reveal all of himself. But what he has revealed is enough for men to know God. And it is enough to satisfy the heart and the soul of man until that day to where we'll really see him in his fullness; see him as he is. You had mentioned a while ago about knowing God, and I thought of that verse, "Eye is not seen and ear is not heard. It hasn't even entered into the mind of man the things that God has in store for those who love him and are called according to his purpose." [1 Corinthians 2:9]

So, if the things that is creation and things of that nature, exceeds our capacity, think how much more God exceeds the one who's making those things. It's a mindblower really. We have to stop and slow down and work our way through that prayerfully, intellectually. And then we come to the last means of revelation, and that's the epitome of revelation is Christ. We thank God for creation and it's enough. And we thank God for scriptures, and it was God breathed and it's for all men. And if we will read the scriptures, the scriptures speak of God and of Christ, we can know him through the scriptures. And we certainly love and appreciate and desperately need the work of the Holy Spirit. But it all comes together in Christ where Christ is the epitome; he's the fullness.

Where it says in John 1:14, "The word became flesh, dwelt among us, and we beheld," we saw, we understood, we comprehended, "his glory. The glory is of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." And he goes on in John chapter 14 [9]. He said, "If you've known me, then you've known my Father. And if you've seen me, you've seen the Father." And of course, that old verse that we all love is Colossians 2:9, "That for in Christ dwells the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form." Christ, not simply his body, the physical aspects of his body, but his attitude, his actions, his word, his conduct, they all reflected the fullness of the Godhead.

So, by these means, people can know God. And then once that revelation is made to man, then man becomes ultimately responsible. We know that God has said, man will be without an excuse. There's not a soul that's going to stand before him and say, "I didn't know. I couldn't know." We do know because there's also the bearing witness in our hearts. There's that innate, in-born self-knowing if we read Romans chapter 1:32 and Romans 2:15, that knowledge has been implanted in our conscience. It's a part of the morality that's within every man. And that morality speaks of a moral law giver, the one who is good and right and just.

So, I think when we talk about this grand, lofty concept and issue of God, we have to see that God is revealing himself. And even today, it doesn't really depend upon circumstances. Circumstances can be used in the purposes of God to reveal himself to men, but I think a lot of it comes down that, he has revealed himself, but it's the seeking heart, it's the longing in the heart of man. That if we'll respond to that, then the Holy Spirit will work to draw us ever and ever and ever closer to him. And the more we understand him, and it is a lifelong process. Paul, at the end of his life, nearing the end of his ministry, of course he said, "Oh that, I might know him."

So, we can't ever exhaust that knowing, but we have to realize that God is all of those adjectives, all those good things we say about him. And he's showing himself to us and he's drawing us to him if we're willing.

Gary Wilkerson: That's right. Powerful. I love the way you lined up the different ways from Romans 1. One of my favorite verses I've underlined in my Bible is for the invisible attributes. I think it might be the only time the word attributes is used in the New Testament, but it is there and then it says those things are powerful and they're just part of his divine nature. That's his essence, that's his being, that's who he is. And through creation, through scripture, through the Holy Spirit, through Christ we get to know him.

So, my prayer and Keith and I's desire for you today is that you would not be listening to ... Paul talked about the demonstration of power, not just the mere words, not just words of man. But we pray that there'd be some power behind this. And the power would be whoever's thirsty, come and drink of me. So, a dry and thirsty heart and a parched mouth, a famine that there is in the land for the word of God. We do these podcasts here, these particular sessions that we're doing on the attributes, nature, character of God, are to, we pray, create hunger in you to cause you to return to that passionate pursuit of the divine and the holy.

And so, we're going to take the next, I think we started off by saying that maybe the next 10–12 weeks. I have a feeling, because we haven't even started talking about any of the attributes yet, and we're on week two or three here. So let's pause here and come back next week and take some moments, some time to go through what are some of the more commonly known attributes of God and then how those attributes can be described to the best of our knowledge, and then how those descriptions impact our life. Because all of these things are very practical.

I heard one preacher say, "Every time you give a message, there needs to be a ‘now what’ and a ‘so what’." So there's a "Oh, big deal, attributes of God. So what?" Well, they totally transform your life. You are changed more by the attributes of God, the knowledge of the holy, than you are any therapy, any pastoral counseling, any small group you might go to. Knowing the heart of God will transform your life more than anything else. So that's the 'so what'.

And then the ‘now what’ is you are a thirsty creature. You are hungry for more of God, and these things are the wetting of our appetite, and you can bring a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. We pray that we're bringing ... Not that we're calling our friends who are listening to us horses or donkeys or anything else near like that. But we are saying all of us need to be drawn towards those things that are holy.

So, we'll be back next week with some powerful things, I believe. Keith, thanks for your input and it's stirring my heart. I want to hear more. We'll see you next week. Thanks Keith.