Gary Wilkerson: Well, hello, everybody. We are in for a great time today at the Gary Wilkerson Podcast here at World Challenge. We have in our studio with us today Laura Harris Smith. Thanks for being with us today.

Laura: Thanks.

Gary: I just got your book, and I've been reading it and it's been a real blessing. I love how you're praying for people, speaking faith, and helping people spirit, mind, body—spirit, soul, and body. That's one of our favorite passages here as a ministry, 1 Thessalonians, where it talks about the spirit, soul, and body.

Laura: I am a miracle believing, hey, let's pray and I'll call down a miracle. I want people to maintain their miracles and to be smart.

Gary: Great point. I really love that you're saying that because we-- I'm with you. I believe in supernatural healing, divine intervention from heaven comes to earth. I have noticed-- because that was not an integral part of my ministry. I believed in healing, but it wasn't a type of thing where like, every time I preached, I prayed for the sick. Now it is because of a couple of years ago, the Lord just did this thing in my life where he introduced something new to my life.

I started praying for the sick and seeing people healed supernaturally. I’d go back to the same, you're a speaker as well as a writer, sometimes you get invited back to the same place. I would see somebody that got healed maybe like a knee that could barely walk. All of a sudden their knees kicking up like, "Oh my knee is healed. My knees healed." Then you go back next year and they're kind of limping again. I'm not a nutritionist, but I see they're maybe 50 or 60 pounds overweight.

They're not exercising, and you wonder like, "Okay, there's supernatural healing of God, but there's something that we're responsible for.” I think your book is brilliant about that. Can you just talk about the difference between the two, the Divine-- [crosstalk]

Laura: I tell you what. You just hit on why I wrote the book.

Gary: Okay, good.

Laura: I came from a denomination where I did not believe in healing. Well, I knew He could do it. I didn't know we could ask. I didn't know He wanted to do it. I'd seen so many people that died that I just thought if I was going to preach my experience and not the Word of God. Here, I didn't believe and then I was in that camp for decades. Then, I have this experience with the Lord. I come into this incredible-- This is now early '90s, where I do start believing in healing.

I realized there were two very distinct camps. There was one-and-dones which I probably belong to now. I'm going to pray one prayer and God's going to fix this for us. I just think that's a place of faith. Then there's the other camp who they don't maybe believe in miracles, but they got the food down pat. They understand the link between nutrition and their bodies. They major in that. I wanted to bring those two camps together.

I was actually at a show, doing a television show a few years ago, and it was a place that really believed in miracles, really believed in the supernatural. There was another guest backstage. She came up to me and she said, "I had cancer." I said, "I didn't know that." I mean she's a worldwide known healing evangelist. I said, "I didn't know that." She said, "My whole church didn't know it."

Gary: Wow.

Laura: I said, "Why?" I can't imagine not having your army praying for you. She said, "I just thought that it would be detrimental to the ministry, to their faith." She said, "I tried to make changes, but it felt like bondage to me. I just trust that the Lord has my back." She then told me she felt like what I was doing, it works. I said, "Sister, it takes a whole lot more work to get sick. God intended you to be healthy [laughs]. Let's talk about that.”

Gary: I don't want to interrupt but do you think when she said, "bondage," do you think she was speaking of to try to eat healthy-

Laura: To try to and it is work.

Gary: -like I want my Twinkies and chocolate cookies, and it’s bondage to--

Laura: Yes, but I don’t know that she was that-- but, yes.

Gary: Okay, that's what she's saying, okay.

Laura: Discipline sometimes feels like bondage, the rules that-- whatever. Once you flip it and your perspective becomes, "No, my body is actually the temple of the Holy Spirit like for real the temple of the Holy Spirit. What am I going to do it?" It was that experience that led to me want to write a book that would bring these two-- Can you imagine if these two camps came together and we understood what we put into our bodies affects not just our health. Gary, I believe it affects our faith. The reason I say this is, how did sin first enter the world? Through food. What did Esau sell his birthright for? What did the Israelites grumble over?

Gary: Jesus' temptation of stone into bread.

Laura: He passed the food test. Exactly. I don't know. I look at all of that and I say, "Even-- it proves there is a link between our food and our faith, when you remove food when you fast, your faith like goes up". I think there's an indisputable link between those and I'd love to bring these two camps together. That's why the book is so both. We're going to call down a miracle and then tell you how to maintain it.

Gary: Yes, you're right. If food is causing the sugar high and then the depression afterwards and you're trying to have faith but you're depressed, you can pray for the miracle like, "Lord, give me faith again." I know the Lord doesn't get tired of our shortcomings. He tries to help us grow. After a while, I would think if I was Lord, I will keep saying, 'Okay, I keep healing your depression but if you keep eating all this garbage, you're going to pay the price for that to some degree.'"

Laura: This launches into something I'm very passionate about and I'll make it brief. There is a difference in healing and miracles. This was not revelation to me until about 15 years ago. I was looking at 1 Corinthians 12 and realizing the gifts of the Spirit: faith, prophecy, tongues, interpretation of tongues, all of those.

Healings and miracles are two different ones. There's not eight gifts of the spirit; there's nine. I started asking the Lord about that and really researching in the Greek, what's the difference? A miracle is an instantaneous work of God. One of the Greek definitions is literally “that the man of God may be established.” So, a sign and wonder happens. He's preaching; everybody believes. Or she's preaching; everybody believes because of that sign. A healing implies process. The Greek words—there are many, many for them—but one of them is therapeuo. It means therapy, cure, medicine.

Sometimes you pray for a miracle; and, unfortunately, you get a healing. That's why I tell people it's not religious rhetoric to say, "Okay I just got prayed for, I'm healed in Jesus' name" you're still manifesting symptoms. You did get a healing, but it may take weeks, months, years who knows. I have had those experiences. I've had flat out miracles where he healed a rib I broke, re-inflated a lung after an injury happened. X-rays proved it, the before and after x-rays flooded Facebook two days later. And then there’s these where he makes me cooperate with him and heal. That usually engages the body, mind, and spirit.

Gary: That's so cool. I knew the words therapy the Greek word that we get the word therapy from but it's first time and I've been in the ministry 40 plus years, so it's pretty rare that somebody pitches something I haven't heard before. That was pretty cool. When we think of therapy like if somebody goes to a Christian counselor or therapist, they don't expect to hear five minutes of the therapist's words and then also to walk away, "I have a perfect marriage now"-

Laura: That's a perfect example, right.

Gary: - therapy is usually a long-term-

Laura: Process.

Gary: - that's a good word.

The last question I was going to ask you was, and I don't mean to put you on the spot but two examples. One, of somebody you and your husband or ministry team at your church. I know you mentioned in the book, your church prays every Sunday for the sick.

Laura: Yes, we do. Anybody who comes up, we'll pray for them. Right.

Gary: I was thinking, if you could-- You mentioned here even at the back of the book, when we speak of miracles, it builds our faith. Maybe one miracle you've seen that's supernatural? Like somebody healed of a disease or sickness. Then one more the healing. One miracle, one healing, as you described them, the instantaneous God healed that person that really thrills you. The other one is the one like you saw, over time they started eating better and getting-- working out or whatever.

Laura: I'm going to tell you the first miracle I ever saw.

Gary: Okay.

Laura: This is really hard, but I'm going to tell you the first one. I was fresh out of a denomination that didn't fully grasp this, so. We get invited to just go to visit with a man. Long story short, there's like six, seven of us in the room, we're praying for each other. We're just in a little side office at a church where one of the people worked. He stands up and he says, "I want you to pray for my leg. I've always had a leg, one that's shorter than the other my whole life, and I've had to go to tailors, and I get special pants made.” It's drastic. I mean, we noticed he had a different gait. I didn't know that's what it was.

It can be so many different things. He said, "I just really have faith right now that you guys will pray for me." I'm thinking, "Go get somebody else that's has more experience, better experience or something.” My husband Chris and I, we get down on the ground. I thought that's a good thing to do. He's in a chair. We’ll get down on the ground and we took his hand, and we just started to pray. It wasn't like any big faith, it was just childlike faith, honestly. We start hearing this, I'm just going to do this. This is the easiest thing for me to do. [knuckles cracking]

Gary: Wow.

Laura: We start hearing his back do all this stuff. He's like kind of twisting and the leg grew into our hands. That was the first miracle we ever saw.

Gary: That's awesome.

Laura: Even then in my skeptical mind, I'm like, "Okay, maybe he's shifting his hips and he's doing this." No, we heard the popping. There was also a woman in the room, she was blind in one eye, all this other stuff. He stands up and he says, "My legs are even." She doesn't receive her healing there. The Spirit falls, we're all just-- It was an amazing, miraculous moment. He goes home and calls us a few weeks later to invite us over for dinner.

He said after dinner, “I have something I want to show you.” He takes us back to his closet and he opens his closet door and he said, "I did not tell my tailor what happened, but I went into get a new pair of pants. I just let him measure me." He said, "Here are all my new pants, and all the old pants.” He let the hem out of on the other leg. The other woman was healed later in a church service. Hers was a healing. It took a few weeks, but her eyes-- She has perfect vision in that eye now. His was a miracle, and hers was a healing. They both happened from two people who didn't even know what they were doing but just said, "Jesus, please do what your Word says."

Gary: Were they in the same service, or is it a different time?

Laura: We were both together in that room.

Gary: In that room, wow.

Laura: Yes.

Gary: The one was--

Laura: Hers didn't happen there, and we went home going, "What has happened? Why didn't hers happen? Is this way it works? We were learning. Now that I understand the difference in miracles and healings—both to God's glory—some people it takes months, years, decades. It'll be a process. I've experienced that, but the thing is that if we will trust the Lord and his timing and trust that he's wanting to do something in us—not just in our physical body, but spirit and mind as well—sometimes those are going to be healed, those physical needs, he's going to choose the healing for that because it will also heal your spirit and mind along the way. Other people have something urgent. Like this man did. It was affecting his whole body, his back health. He was in pain all the time, and God just, in his mercy, took care of it. They were laughing. My husband and he was laughing at all the new pants and I'm sobbing like, "This is so amazing. Jesus is so good."

Gary: I love that. I know I just mentioned that was the last question and I've got about three more for you.

Laura: That's fine.

Gary: When somebody starts eating correctly and exercising, then their health comes into alignment? Do you consider that healing or do you put that in a third category as it's just natural?

Laura: I do consider it healing. I think it's process. Again, if one of the Greek words is therapeuo and it means therapy, remedy, cure or medicine. I believe food is medicine. Hippocrates said, "Let food be your medicine." I really believe that is a process and you can turn. They now say you can turn diabetes around, type two diabetes by changing your diet. I read a report this morning, the first one I've ever read. Amazingly, I read it just this morning before coming here about diet changes that are reversing dementia. This is fascinating. One of them is one of the foods is walnuts. Which interesting to me looks like a brain.

There are all these things that I believe are a process that I would put in the healing category. Then there are just flat out miracles. I've experienced both. I believe in both. I believe those two camps need to not be segregated, we can get a lot more done and be a lot more effective for the Lord. Be a powerful testimony to Him. I just believe that it's going to be a different route for each person and because of that, and I'm glad you brought it up.

I have the heart to encourage people who are in the healing route because they can get so discouraged. Why didn't God answer my prayer? I thought I was going to get a miracle. What am I doing wrong? I guess that doesn't work. I guess God doesn't heal today. Well, I tried to get rid of sugar and it didn't really do anything. I'm going to just go back. On and on and on, the enemy can just absolutely get us off track if we're going down the healing route.

I so believe that healing route, you're not going to believe I'm going to say this. We all would prefer a miracle, but the healing route is the one that's really going to make you whole because you're going to have to dig deep and pray and say, "Lord. What am I doing wrong? Am I not connecting with you? Lord, how am I thinking wrong?" It is a total temple cleansing when you're going down the healing route. Miracles are good and they're merciful.

We knew a guy; he was addicted to drugs and alcohol. He literally went to the altar and got delivered of alcoholism like that never had another craving. The drugs, however, I'm talking about prescription drugs. He was on like 33 Xanax a day buying them illegally online. That happened by process. He weaned off of them. We actually had several sessions with him of prayer that turned into all-out what I would call deliverance sessions. We knew medically what the symptoms were of Xanax withdrawal. He went through all of those checklists. There were some in this category over here that you could not explain things that were manifesting and voices.

It was the reason he was medicating. We had to deal with those. This one at the altar happened. It was a miracle. The alcoholism was taken from him. God required him to cooperate with him to get off of these prescription drugs. It has made him a better father. It's allowed him to choose better coping mechanisms because he's whole emotionally now and physically. It's up to your heavenly Father which one he chooses for you. It's not your place to argue with him You have to flow with Him and obey Him.

Gary: I think the healing we have when people ask why would God want it to take so long? I often think of when God was bringing, I think it was Joshua, back into the promised land and he says, "I'm going to leave five enemies in the land."

"Why? Why would you leave five enemies?” To teach me how to war. I think sometimes--

Laura: He gave that verse one time too.

Gary: With the Teen Challenge background that I have, working with people with addictions, I've seen that instantaneous healing and the ones who don't get that are like sometimes jealous of, "Why didn’t God do that?" but oftentimes the one who battled with this have really learned how to how to do spiritual warfare and learn how to stand for their well-being.

Laura: It is standing. It's the process of climbing. Psalm 24, "Who may stand before the Lord? The holy hill of the Lord." Who may climb the holy hill of the Lord, then it speaks about standing. There's the climbing and then there's the standing. I believe that if you will do both since you bring up, the drugs and the alcohol and all of that, and the numbers passage about God, what it specifically says, "He won't clear all the giants at once, or else your children would never learn to war". I think about the legacy Your father has in you and his children. Sometimes he won't take all the giants out immediately because he wants your children to learn to overcome.

There were times when I was going through things and I would think, I'd be digging, soul searching, Spirit connecting with the Holy Spirit. As I said, the full route, the healing route, the clean-my-clock route. I would say, "Lord, how much character does one person need?" That's when he showed me that verse. I can't remember what it is now.

I can't remember what it was but as I looked it up, it said, "And I will not remove all Goliaths at once that your children may learn the art of war". I thought, "Okay".

What this is about is not just me and something I'm doing wrong. He wants my children to learn how to war for him. He wants my children to learn not to be discouraged if they asked for a miracle and get healing. He wants them to-- Because remember, we were turning the Titanic around. Those first two children were raised in a denomination that did not believe in this. They had to see the miracles, but they also needed to learn healings and not move into doubt and unbelief if there was a waiting period.

Gary: Good word. So encouraging.